Curse

Hackforth · Jul 28, 2010, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Hi all

I am trying to build an effective Minion Master for my Hero. I have not played a Necro myself so I was just wondering a few things

I have been looking at the builds on PvX and I really like the Jagged Bones build for minion bombing. I am currently running:

OABDUshnOVhlKaQpaJ+E2hqK

I monitored his behavior and noticed that he is very faithful with Death Nova, he seemed to cast it on every party member and minion. However, because of this he neglects Jagged bones and a minion mob of 9 quickly gets reduced to only 3 Jagged horrors. Is that ok? Or would a Flesh Golem be more effective for a hero?

I think in clearing two area on hard mode he only used Feast of the Dead once or twice and the same goes for Mark of Pain and the other skills. As a player I would have thought one would use Taste of Death or Feast of the Dead quite often to bomb your minions while getting a new Jagged Horror.

So Basically my question is whether Heroes have the AI to work this build? Or is a simpler Flesh Golem or Order of Undeath build better for them?

Also, on a side note, since a minion master does not in any way depend on Soul Reaping could a E/N minion master be as effective? Because I dont see a single build working with Energy Storage and minions, why?

Thanks

Life Bringing · Jul 28, 2010, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Try this: OANTUYD+USOoKANQBcLMgoe4uC

Also, MMs depend on SR an incredible amount. I dont know where you're getting that they dont need it

Swahnee · Jul 28, 2010, 09:52 AM // 09:52

I'm starting to get annoyed by death's nova. Yes, the aoe armor-ignoring damage+poison is nice, but the hero keeps wasting a lot of time casting it, and, mostly, it likes to put it to dying teammates instead of those prots i gave him

So i'm starting trying to avoid death's nova, using the MM (not minion bomber anymore) only to fuel the other necros' energy bars and to build up a meat shield for defensive purposes (and to use more effectively the secondary skills, heals or prots). It would be nice an AI update which makes heroes use death nova only on minions, and not on humans.

Fabez · Jul 28, 2010, 09:54 AM // 09:54

First of all, as Life Bringing noted: minion master's depend on Soul Reaping a lot, the frequent deaths of their minions/foes is what keeps their energy up.

Second, heroes maintain Jagged Bones(/Death Nova) just fine on their minions. The reason why you see so few Jagged Horrors after all of your minions have been "bombed" is because it has a 30 second duration and a 15 second recharge, effectively limitting it to being active on two minions at a time (not taking into account +enchanting weaponry or half skill recharge effects triggering).

I haven't used Feast of the Dead or Mark of Pain on my Necromancer heroes, so I can't comment on their usage of those, but I doubt they need a skill to "trigger" deaths (your minions will most likely/should be dropping like flies in HM).

Again, as Life Bringing noted: the "core" of a minion bomber is usually Animate Bone Minions, [insert elite skill here], Death Nova and Masochism. This leaves you with 4 "utility" skill slots to do something else with, for example skills from the Curses or Protection Prayers attributes. Minion bomber's have enough energy to use these alongside their other skills.

As to your question regarding Animate Flesh Golem/Order of Undeath:
- Flesh Golems are the "tanks" among minions, able to absorb a lot of damage. This is why they are unsuitable for a minion bomber, as you want your minions to die in order for them to deal damage.
- Order of Undeath isn't suited for minion bomber's because you are attempting to increase the damage your minions deal, but this isn't the primary focus of a minion bomber: minions are just a "medium" for you to deliver damage to your foes with Death Nova.

In addition, I don't believe heroes are capable of using Order of Undeath effectively.

The reason why you don't see many E/N minion master's/bomber's is because the moment the Elementalist has used all his/her energy, he/she will have to wait until their energy recovers.

Necromancers, on the other hand, will likely have their energy refilled every 15 seconds from the deaths of minions and foes.

Hackforth · Jul 28, 2010, 10:56 AM // 10:56

I see the benefits of a high Soul Reaping skill now

Probably cause I haven't played or used necros but been far more involved with elementalist heroes that I thought in that direction. Thanks!

I am not sure whether I agree that he maintains Jagged Bones really well. I kept his skill bar open and he rarely cast it, being mostly occupied with Death Nova.
However since, as you noted it has a 30sec duration and a 15sec recharge having 3 Jagged Horrors after an encounter is actually fairly good!! It would however be more effective if he wouldnt keep casting Death Nova on party members as Swahnee said.

I am surprised order of undeath is not well used by your hero, thats sad

with regards to Life Bringing's build, I should have said in the OP that I dont have eotn at the moment

But thanks

Hackforth · Jul 28, 2010, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Ok, well, looks like I have to take back my comment in the last post and my OP. Just been playing again and he is using Jagged Bones far more consistently now. Thanks for all the advice

HigherMinion · Jul 28, 2010, 04:33 PM // 16:33

I don't see much point in having a minion raising skill, my MB upkeeps 7~or more minions easily without one. I use support elites like Empathic Removal or Signet of Removal. Much more helpful.

SpyderArachnid · Jul 28, 2010, 07:28 PM // 19:28

I usually run my MM hero with Aura of the Lich and Shambling Horror. Then tack on Death Nova and BotM and I'm all set.

Then use either Monk or Ritualist Secondary. Monk for Prot spells or Rit for heals (Mend Body & Soul, Spirit Light, Life).

Has worked great for me so far with no troubles. Except for the occasional lag behind from the Death Nova casting. -.-

kanuks · Jul 28, 2010, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Aura of the Litch is much, much better than Jagged Bones.

More minions and bigger minions.

Better on all aspects.

It can even raise a 3-4 minions army without a single corpse.

**Marty Silverblade** · Jul 28, 2010, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanuks

Aura of the Litch is much, much better than Jagged Bones.

More minions and bigger minions.

Better on all aspects.

It can even raise a 3-4 minions army without a single corpse.

AotL is only +1 Death. It won't allow you to have more minions. Unless of course your Death Magic attribute is an odd number to start with, which I don't see the point of.

/Agree with HigherMinion. People need to realise that just because everyone mindlessly plugs Jagged Bones into MB builds doesn't mean it's uber-powerful. Empathic Removal is awesome.

kanuks · Jul 29, 2010, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marty Silverblade

AotL is only +1 Death. It won't allow you to have more minions. Unless of course your Death Magic attribute is an odd number to start with, which I don't see the point of.

/Agree with HigherMinion. People need to realise that just because everyone mindlessly plugs Jagged Bones into MB builds doesn't mean it's uber-powerful. Empathic Removal is awesome.

By more minions I didn't mean more max amount of minions. I meant I usually have a bigger minions army with aotl than with jb. Mostly because when i kill a big mob fast, i don't stay there waiting for minions to be raised. Aotl can raise 11 minions in 2 seconds after a big fight. Much much faster. Also you can enter the first fight of a given area with a few minions already, which is more than no minions at all

.

JB is such a bad skill. Thats basically an unspammable elite skill that raises a conditionnal minion that can induce bleeding. I mean it doesn't even have an immediate effect the moment u cast it. You need to wait a random amount of time before it actually triggers. It would be good with a 10 seconds or less recharge.

HigherMinion · Jul 29, 2010, 06:35 AM // 06:35

One problem can be with the AI if you're using 16 Death Magic, Masochism and AoTL, the minion's armour may be higher than a caster's, making the enemy AI target them less often. Minion dun go boom waa.

Hackforth · Jul 29, 2010, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Based on the advice I think Id run this AEOiRGmF8cUlD4B0QVdyJNHnA

but is Blood of the Master better than Feat of the Dead for a minion bomber? Or as mentioned in one of the posts, is either of them needed at all? Can I just put in another skill instead?

HigherMinion · Jul 29, 2010, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackforth

Based on the advice I think Id run this AEOiRGmF8cUlD4B0QVdyJNHnA

but is Blood of the Master better than Feat of the Dead for a minion bomber? Or as mentioned in one of the posts, is either of them needed at all? Can I just put in another skill instead?

I think it's been said before that Minion Bombers don't really prioritise heals well over Death Nova. Best bet is to take prots like Aegis, Protective Spirit and Shield of Absorption so you can manage them yourself easier. Micro managing redbar heals is a bit impossible in stressful times. Also, don't take Blood of the Master and bring Animate Bone Minions if you intend to simply make a suicide army.

...One more thing; if you buy a minor Soul Reaping rune drop SR to 8 and 10 secondary attribute (prot, resto, smite, etc.)

Swahnee · Jul 29, 2010, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackforth

Based on the advice I think Id run this AEOiRGmF8cUlD4B0QVdyJNHnA

but is Blood of the Master better than Feat of the Dead for a minion bomber? Or as mentioned in one of the posts, is either of them needed at all? Can I just put in another skill instead?

If you bring death's nova that means that you want your minions to explode, so why do you keep them alive, running the risk that their nova will expire before they die? Blood of the master isn't really a skill that you want in that build. Try putrid bile for even more explosions, or a ress if you need it.

Hackforth · Jul 29, 2010, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Agreed

But thats a criticism for the Blood of the Master, not for the Restoration skills right?

Xenomortis · Jul 29, 2010, 01:32 PM // 13:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

If you bring death's nova that means that you want your minions to explode, so why do you keep them alive, running the risk that their nova will expire before they die? Blood of the master isn't really a skill that you want in that build. Try putrid bile for even more explosions, or a ress if you need it.

Blood of the Master on a hero isn't going to save minions when they come under attack. Keeping level 21 minions alive is hard enough - level 14 minions in the hands of a hero die no problem.
Blood of the Master is useful to make sure they get to their targets before exploding and is nice to keep up your army when moving.

Swahnee · Jul 29, 2010, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackforth

Agreed

But thats a criticism for the Blood of the Master, not for the Restoration skills right?

Yap.

Quote:

Blood of the Master on a hero isn't going to save minions when they come under attack. Keeping level 21 minions alive is hard enough - level 14 minions in the hands of a hero die no problem.
Blood of the Master is useful to make sure they get to their targets before exploding and is nice to keep up your army when moving.

That's a good point. However, i don't know if a Minion Bomber hero is smart enought to use BotM with this effectiveness. I've always had the feeling that they use it when they haven't anything better to do

Xenomortis · Jul 29, 2010, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

I've always had the feeling that they use it when they haven't anything better to do

Which is enough.
Besides, it's not too hard to click the BotM icon when you're moving or are about to engage the enemy.

kanuks · Jul 29, 2010, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hackforth

Based on the advice I think Id run this AEOiRGmF8cUlD4B0QVdyJNHnA

but is Blood of the Master better than Feat of the Dead for a minion bomber? Or as mentioned in one of the posts, is either of them needed at all? Can I just put in another skill instead?

Don't use either. Minion bomber should not waste his time healing his own minions.